Amelia Wilcox – Founder & CEO of Nivati

Speaker 1 (00:00:02) – Welcome to the Growth Elevated Leadership podcast with Julian Castelli. Each week, we talk with senior tech leaders to explore stories and insights about the challenges involved with growing technology companies. We hope that these stories can help you become a better leader and help you navigate your own growth journey. Speaker 2 (00:00:27) – Hello, this is Julian Castelli. I’m the host of the Growth Elevated Leadership podcast, where each week we talk with inspirational entrepreneurs and leaders in the tech industry. Past guests have included CEOs and CXOs of great companies like Work Front, Healthcare Systems in Moment, the San Francisco 40 Niners, and more. this episode is brought to you by Growth elevated. Growth elevated is a community of tech founders, CEOs, and CXOs who are committed to working together to share best practices and learnings in an effort to become better leaders. We do that through this podcast, as well as events and a community of other tech leaders. If you’d like to learn more, please check us out at Growth Elevated. today I’m super excited to be. To be joined by Amelia Wilcox. Speaker 2 (00:01:17) – Amelia is the founder and CEO of Novartis. Novartis is a leader in employee mental health and wellbeing. Novartis, a high growth B2B company whose platform provides employee stress management tools and direct access to professional services. beyond Novartis, Amelia speaks on wellbeing, mental health and entrepreneurship at universities and events across the country. She is also active in promoting women and business communities and taking care of her family of five. Please welcome Amelia. Hi, Amelia. Speaker 3 (00:01:50) – Hey, Julian. Thanks for having me. That’s quite the guest list that you listed off. So I feel honored to be included with such great companies. Speaker 2 (00:01:58) – Well, we’re excited to have you. And, it’s been great getting to know you over the last few years and and, watching your journey at Nevada. And we’re looking forward to learn from it today. Speaker 3 (00:02:08) – Awesome. Let’s do it. Speaker 2 (00:02:10) – Yeah. Well, you know, tell us, you know, tell us what Nevada does. And how do you come up with the idea of starting that business? Speaker 3 (00:02:17) – Yeah. Speaker 3 (00:02:18) – So Nevada is an employee mental health and wellness platform. So we work with companies all over the US. And it’s an employee benefit where they can work with a provider or do self-guided care, across six different dimensions of well-being. So it’s a focus on mental health through the lens of mental health. but we recognize that there’s a lot of different paths to positive mental health for people, and we want to make sure we have the resources for all the things people need, whether that’s, financial well-being or nutrition, sleep, all the things. So it’s it’s pretty great. and yeah, therapy within like 24 hours. and we’re helping a lot of people. So it’s been really rewarding for me how I got started with this business. I actually ran a company before this called Incorporate Massage, and we did onsite massage therapy for employers, also as an employee benefit in the air space. and we were actually expanding to do all sorts of wellness services on site for companies. And so we were kind of evolving from just like an onsite massage company to onsite wellness. Speaker 3 (00:03:32) – We were expanding, and we had a lot of different partners that we worked with already that did, you know, onsite yoga or even like esthetics and nails and things like that, where everyone’s bringing everything into the office at that time, and we had grown the company to about 6 million in revenue. And then Covid hit and we basically went to zero in about ten days. Speaker 2 (00:03:54) – As, yes, an entrepreneur through Covid. We should talk more about that. But I’ll let you keep going. But I’m sure there’s stories there. Speaker 3 (00:04:00) – Yes. It’s a that’s a long story in and of itself. But yeah, the short version is we kind of looked around for a different problem we could solve. We didn’t know how long Covid was going to last. and my board really pushed me to just say, like, hey, what if this never comes back? What are you going to do? and so that was really difficult for me because I just couldn’t imagine a world where, like, what we live in now, my brain, my brain was like, no, of course everything’s going to go back to normal, right? and so I put together kind of a plan where I was like, okay, let’s see how we can, like, deliver wellness services instead of onsite, but doing them virtually. Speaker 3 (00:04:39) – And so we had massage therapists that already worked for us that did like personal training. We had registered dietitians, we had yoga instructors. And so kind of like our V1 was, let’s just do these sessions with employees one on one over zoom. Speaker 2 (00:04:52) – No employees are you are you A B to B to C model you you’re providing these to the individual consumer or the employee. But are you selling to the employer? Speaker 3 (00:05:02) – We’re selling to the employer. And then it’s being provided as an employee benefit that the employer is paying for. Speaker 2 (00:05:08) – Okay. Terrific. Yeah. You consider yourself a B2B business or B2C or. Speaker 3 (00:05:13) – B2B for sure. Okay. Yeah, we’re we’re selling the company. Even when we did massage, it was the same way. We never did like employee paid massage programs. That’s just not like my belief system is that, you know, the way we really help employees is by removing the things that are preventing them from getting care. So we have to make it affordable by, you know, covering the cost. Speaker 3 (00:05:36) – We have to make it accessible by bringing it into the workplace and making it really easy for them. So yeah. Speaker 2 (00:05:40) – So that’s, that’s that’s an innovation. Right. And that involves technology innovation and all the challenges of, of of who’s paying for what. And the complexity of, of health benefits I’m sure has been quite a bit. But let’s benchmark your journey here. So when did you start Novartis? Speaker 3 (00:05:57) – we launched with our first client in October of 2020. Speaker 2 (00:06:00) – Okay. So about four years now. and as he started at zero, where are you? Where are you now? Speaker 3 (00:06:07) – we’re currently, yeah, we’re at 1.5 million in revenue, and we’ve got 16 full time employees right now. Speaker 2 (00:06:17) – Okay. And I understand you just just raised some capital. Congratulations. Speaker 3 (00:06:21) – Thank you. Yeah, I was brutal. Yeah. No. Favorite fundraising environment? Speaker 2 (00:06:25) – The last 18 months has been a really challenging fundraising environment. So kudos to you to be able to come through and be successful there. Who are you? Who are your investors? Speaker 3 (00:06:35) – Access Venture Partners out of Denver, Colorado, and Firebrand Ventures out of Kansas City and Boulder, Colorado. Speaker 2 (00:06:42) – So fantastic. Well, you know, mental health is is really on the front page of the news these days with I don’t know if it’s social media or all the the turmoil that’s going on in the world or our politics or screens. But I keep hearing social, you know, the mental health crisis that we’re in right now is it seems like it’s bigger than ever. and it’s it must feel good to be providing those kind of services to people who maybe not now, don’t know how to get that help. Speaker 3 (00:07:14) – Yeah, it’s very rewarding. I, I really loved what we were doing previously in massage because we were really helping people, you know, in pain and who had chronic headaches or who were really stressed and anxious, like being able to physically relax them. you got a lot of positive feedback. And I felt like that was really fulfilling and my team was really fulfilled by that. You’re just getting like positive comments and feedback all the time. People are so grateful. And so it’s just really rewarding. Speaker 3 (00:07:43) – When we saw the opportunity to move into mental health, it was like, I didn’t even know we could like what we were feeling before as a company. and so that has been one of the most wonderful things about what we’re doing now is like, it’s it’s been, you know, we’re helping people who have problems in their marriage. We’re doing we’re doing like couples counseling where people have said like, hey, this saved my marriage. We have people that have said, this has saved their life when they’re dealing with extreme depression. And they needed to talk to someone. And they were, you know, having suicidal thoughts and, you know, people saying they just needed a friend to talk to, you know, on the lighter level or they’re experiencing a lot of stress and burnout. So we just again, it’s just like a lot of really positive difference that we’re making in the world that people seem to really, really need. And so being able to bring it in through the workplace and make it accessible and remove the, the concerns around like, oh my gosh, have I met my deductible yet? And your health insurance or do I have a copay like that? Cost can prevent a lot of people from getting the care that they need. Speaker 3 (00:08:47) – so we’re layered on top of health care, usually as a, as a faster way for someone to get in to see someone without having to go through insurance because it’s going through insurance is really it’s just a very friction. Speaker 2 (00:08:59) – Yeah, there’s tons of friction. And then you have this category of mental health, which I don’t know, am I right when I say it’s it’s kind of emerging into people’s consciousness that it’s something that you do can go get help for. A lot of people live with this for a long time without getting help. Is that is that accurate? Speaker 3 (00:09:16) – Yeah, I would say it’s definitely being brought to the forefront of like a social agenda. If you look at the US Surgeon General’s top six priorities, right. So you go to the website, US Surgeon General talks about like what his initiatives are. mental health and provider burnout are like two out of his six, initiatives that he’s really focused on. So even like at a, at a federal national level, we’re seeing that messaging being pushed out. Speaker 3 (00:09:44) – We’re seeing it, you know, city level like high school, right? They’re bringing in speakers to come in and talk to high school students. And so it’s raising everyone’s awareness. And and that’s really helping break down a lot of the stigma around it where people used to think like, oh, if I go get help, I’m broken or, you know, there’s something wrong with me or I don’t want to admit this, and it’s making it a lot more just approachable, like, hey, wait, maybe this is part of, like, normal self-care. Error, and we’re starting to see that shift slowly. over the last few years, just starting to happen. So a lot more people are willing to reach out, which has been great. Speaker 2 (00:10:19) – So the end consumer now is more aware that there’s help. You’re actually helping them understand that too by providing. Providing information about the various types of help that might be provided. What’s the challenge with the business model in terms of, making this a benefit and, and, you know, how does your business what does your economic business model work like? Speaker 3 (00:10:44) – Yeah. Speaker 3 (00:10:45) – So, I mean, we sell into HR, so there’s a couple challenges with that, right? Like HR pre-COVID, have their own budget and they could sign off on things with maybe without a cfo’s approval, where they could be the decision makers in some cases. post. It’s not even Covid, I would guess. I would just say, like with everything that’s happened in the venture market and how that’s trickled down into the economy as a whole. so the last 18 months, essentially, we’re seeing more HR people with less power, less ability to make decisions. and so we’re having to bring in like the CFO or the CEO and a lot of these conversations, or they’ll have like big committees that are deciding how to spend the money. Speaker 2 (00:11:28) – So now they but they’ve already got health insurance. The you know, yeah, all of our, our companies are providing health insurance. But is the mental health something that’s not included in their current packages. And do you have to educate them about that. Speaker 3 (00:11:41) – No. Speaker 3 (00:11:41) – So it is included in their packages. A lot of times they’re coming to us because their employees have a high need. So a typical HR person, there’s people marching into their office all the time saying, I’m really struggling with this, how do I get this help? And they can’t get in through insurance because it’s like an eight week wait. and so if you’re having a mental health challenge, you don’t want to wait two months to see someone. So there’s this huge gap where it’s like, yeah, we have health insurance, but like, how do we help people now? because a lot of people just give up. It’s like, I’m not going to wait two months to go talk to somebody, and then they just don’t get any help at all. and so we kind of come in and fill that gap. There’s also a lot of times we’re coming in and we’re replacing what’s called an employee assistance program. a lot of people are familiar with EAP. Maybe you use them in the past. sometimes those are provided, like with a health insurance package. Speaker 3 (00:12:28) – they’re basically designed for crisis care though. So it’s like, hey, if you’re struggling and you need to talk to someone immediately because you’re, you know, having an anxiety attack or whatever the case may be, you’re going to call this one 800 number. Someone who’s not a therapist is going to answer the call, and you’re going to tell them your problem. Then they’re going to give you a list of people to call, and you’re going to call all these clinics, and you’re going to get on a list and probably wait 2 to 3 weeks. you don’t get to choose your therapist. Usually they just assign someone to you. They’re usually the least experienced therapist. So they’re kind of like getting their experience, you know, helping you out. They don’t have a ton of experience to offer. So it’s usually not like the best quality therapists. And then you can only see them for 2 or 3 visits. And then like that’s your EAP benefit. And so kind of contrast something there. Speaker 2 (00:13:16) – But it’s not it either either has time delays or it’s not enough. Speaker 2 (00:13:20) – And you’re offering an alternative benefit. And and ultimately are you selling that as, as something that that’s going to help with, with retention and just a healthier employee population? yeah. You know what what what what is what is your primary, driver for people to say? Yeah, I want, I want to add Novartis to my benefits packages. Speaker 3 (00:13:42) – Yeah. So it’s a couple things I would say retention is a big piece of it. even just like so HR tend to be like really compassionate people. That’s why they’re going to HR in the first place. And they just really want to help their employees. And they see these employees with needs that are being unmet. The benefits they have in place aren’t sufficient. and so they want to help them. So we hear things like, HR is like, I can’t do my job because I’m basically being a therapist for my employees all day, okay? They’re looking to bring somebody in to take that workload off of their plate. and it’s been incredibly effective. they’re looking for things. Speaker 3 (00:14:17) – We’re seeing a lot more, high prescription health care costs around mental health, a lot more what people are calling like mental health days, right? When people are taking days off because their their stress level or their anxiety is just so high they can’t function. And these are trends that have been just like going up even since Covid ended. They’re continuing to increase. And so companies will say, oh my gosh, like we’re having a ton of absenteeism due to mental health, and we need to put something in place that will help people get the help so it doesn’t get to that point and our employees will come to work more. so yeah, productivity and absenteeism is one of those. And then of course, the health insurance cost where they say, oh, mental health prescription costs or mental health visits are in like our top three costs. And we need to figure out a way to reduce those. Speaker 2 (00:14:58) – So it sounds like the market’s coming to you a little bit or you’re you’re you’re seeing the need grow and you’re addressing it. Speaker 2 (00:15:03) – So it has is it easier to sell today than it was maybe three years ago because of the market trends. Speaker 3 (00:15:10) – in some ways, yes, it’s easier to sell because I think people are recognizing this isn’t going away. I think in the beginning people were like, oh, mental health is kind of like the top of mind, but maybe that’ll pass, like once Covid passes and it just kind of go away. And that hasn’t been the case. It’s actually if you look at the statistics, it’s gone up nine points. Mental health issues have gone up, nine points since Covid ended. Yeah. So over the last couple of years. So, yeah, I think it’s easier to sell in that, like, everybody’s looking for it and everybody wants something. It’s not as easy to sell in the last 18 months, because air has just kind of been like their legs have been kind of cut off out from under them. It’s like, hey, there’s tons of reductions in force happening. People are cutting their benefits. Speaker 3 (00:16:02) – And even though it’s like the need is the highest it’s ever been, if they can kind of squeak by maybe one more year, you know, we’re just seeing a lot of companies that are like, yes, we want this. We can’t implement it this year. We have to like, this is like a 2020 5th January 2025. So our deal cycles have gotten a little bit longer. air is having to bring in, some of the C-suite to get their decisions made instead of being able to make decisions on their own, which is extending the sales cycle, as well. And then just a lot of a lot of challenges around budget. Everything’s just kind of down to budget right now. Speaker 2 (00:16:35) – The last yeah, the last 24 months have been dramatically harder for fund raising. And that’s trickled down, you know, the economy with, with with a stall out in the economy, there’s been a lot of cutback, with businesses in general. And they’re spending. Do you, do you focus on any particular, verticals you sell into? I know you and I are both in tech. Speaker 2 (00:16:56) – Are you selling into tech? Is that that that group has been hit pretty particularly hard. Have you thought about other pivots? Speaker 3 (00:17:02) – Yeah. So yeah, that’s a great question. when we started at the beginning of last year about 70% of our revenue was in venture backed tech. So when. Speaker 4 (00:17:13) – Okay, so you. Speaker 2 (00:17:13) – Really got so, you know, okay, this is the entrepreneur’s journey that we want to capture. You know, first you you you pivot from from physical wellness and massage to mental mental wellness and then you, you you you go from a period of, of abundant funding in the markets to brutally difficult for both you as a, as a founder, having to fund your own business. But now you’re also serving those customers. Right? So. But talk to us about what it’s been like working with the venture community, the venture funded businesses, and what you’re doing about that challenge now. Speaker 3 (00:17:47) – Yeah, I mean, exactly. We we woke up and we’re like, all right, we have all these like huge deals with amazing companies and they’re like getting to the finish line. Speaker 3 (00:17:56) – It’s like you got to like March of last year. And all of a sudden everybody’s like, oh, we’re doing huge reductions in force. All new benefits are on hold. Right? And you’re thinking, okay, maybe next quarter, okay, maybe next quarter. And a lot of those, they’ve now been put on hold for like years now we’re like two years maybe 20, 25. so I realized pretty quickly as we had all these great deals that, you know, we’re going to launch our revenue, and then all of a sudden they had just all stalled. I was like, crap, we we can’t sell into venture backed tech. We can’t focus all of our efforts there. It’s also where most of our competitors are focused, too. And so I just did an analysis. I’m like, okay, where else are we winning? What’s like our number two market and our number three market. And we saw that, health care and education were both, markets where we had quite a bit of clients. Speaker 3 (00:18:43) – they were happy we didn’t have much churn. and, you know, we just had really good utilization metrics. So I was like, okay, let’s start running some campaigns to like, double down on health care and education. And, we’ve kind of moved around within those to figure out, like where our focus is right on healthcare. Is, is it hospitals? are we focused on clinics, long term care, you know, where are we seeing the need? Where are we seeing the dollars being spent in the budget? and we ended up with a primary focus as of today on really, like, small to medium hospital networks, is where we’re focused. And then we do we have continue to get more like higher education on the platform as well. so we’re seeing those come through pretty consistently. And so now where it was like 70% venture backed tech, now we’re sitting at like 25% venture backed tech because the ones that we’re already working with us for the most part, they’re not pulling those benefits away because their employees are using it. Speaker 3 (00:19:38) – They’re seeing the benefit. And so they’re cutting other things and, you know, cutting teams. But keeping those in place, well. Speaker 2 (00:19:44) – That’s that’s such a great exercise and, and discipline to actually look at your customers and figure out, you know, where you can focus and feel like you’ve got your best chance of success. Right, because you have limited resources. And if you can find an area that, like you said, has good retention and good economics and really are getting benefit from the product, you can double down on that. And those those categories are huge, right? So I’m sure you’ve got plenty of headroom to be able to sell into healthcare and, and education for quite some time. Speaker 4 (00:20:15) – Yeah. Speaker 3 (00:20:15) – There’s there’s a lot of experimentation too. Like if we’re just talking about healthcare, it’s like, okay, we’ve we’ve always worked with health insurance brokers that sell across all industries. Are there brokers that specialize just in selling into healthcare? And it turns out that there are. So we’re like, okay, let’s get meetings with those people. Speaker 3 (00:20:30) – Let’s go to conferences that are just healthcare specific. Let’s see if we can get in with like a group purchasing organization that sells into healthcare. And so we’ve got a lot of those kind of irons in the fire, right now that are coming to fruition, which is which is exciting. So I think we’re going to be able to open that category up even more. Speaker 2 (00:20:47) – All right. Well, fantastic. That sounds like a great pivot and good luck with that. so, you know, four years in, you’ve had a couple pivots, you’ve gone through a recession, you just raised money. You’re still alive. Congratulations. you know, what lessons, would you like to share with with with our community in terms of, you know, going through those challenging times, looking back. Speaker 3 (00:21:09) – Yeah. I think so. On a on a personal level, one of the biggest lessons I learned, is just that. You know, I think growing, growing this company growing the last version of of this company, which would be I will refer to as my last company. Speaker 3 (00:21:29) – I think there’s just been I haven’t really had, like a big exit or anything like that, like some entrepreneurs. A lot of people will say, you know, after I’ve had my first exit, then after that it’s like really fun, right? They’re like more experimenting. They can take bigger risks. It’s not as scary. so I’ve just been very focused on, like, I’ve got to have a good outcome and this fear of like, man, if this fails, I don’t know what I’m going to do because I basically have worked for myself since I was like about 20 years old. And before that it was like I had two jobs. I worked at the YMCA and I worked at Domino’s Pizza. So in my mind I’m like, I didn’t graduate from college, I don’t have any real jobs to put on my resume. So like, where would I go work if I’m not working for myself? I’m not building a company. So I kind of had this fear that if this fails, like, you know, my family’s going to lose their house, we’re going to be destitute. Speaker 3 (00:22:14) – Like, I don’t know what’s going to happen. And so this is a lot of weight to be carrying around, really high stakes. And as I’ve looked back. Speaker 4 (00:22:22) – What it’s incredibly. Speaker 2 (00:22:24) – Stressful. Speaker 3 (00:22:24) – It’s it’s very stressful. And so as I’ve looked back of like how I have grown in the skills that I’ve gained and like, through all of this process, and kind of learned more about what type of opportunities would exist for a person like I am. And like, actually, I am employable. I could go onto another company where they need a co-founder, and I know how to build the building blocks of a company and how to hire and find good talent. Like, I’ve developed a lot of those skills, and I could I could get hired at a, at a just a normal company to with the skills that I have. and that’s taken a lot of pressure off of me, which is allowed me to, to kind of be a little more free to take risks and have a little bit more fun with it. Speaker 3 (00:23:08) – so for me, that was like a really life changing lesson where it’s like, oh, actually, if this fails, it’s not the end of the world. And I have other entrepreneur friends that have felt the same, right? Where it just feels like everything you have is on this one bet. And if it goes wrong, and the amount of stress and anxiety that causes inhibits your ability to really drive the company well, you know. Speaker 2 (00:23:27) – Absolutely. No, I know what you’re feeling about I, I call it the waking up and staring at the ceiling at four in the morning, exercise where you put all that pressure on. But but you’re right. So having the confidence to to know that there are going to be lots of lots of doors that are going to open, that you don’t know, that are even there today, or that they will open, and the confidence that you can find your way through, you know, and now you must have more confidence. You’ve done several pivots. You’ve you’ve raised capital in a challenging environment. Speaker 2 (00:23:55) – You’re seeing more opportunity. And, you know, you probably couldn’t have seen the opportunity you’re looking at today 18 months ago. Is that. Speaker 4 (00:24:00) – Correct? Yeah. Speaker 3 (00:24:01) – Oh, 100%. It’s and yeah, you just never know what’s coming down the pike. And I think too, you get you’re going to get thrown curveballs like there is like a real element of luck, a large element of luck. Right? I can have the skill set to build the foundation of a, of a healthy company with smooth operations and, you know, great financial hygiene. I can understand go to market really well, but it’s like if the market’s not there, I mean, there’s just so many variables. It’s almost like we have to kind of give ourselves permission that it’s like, if the company fails, it doesn’t mean you have failed. It doesn’t mean you’re a failure. It may just mean like the market isn’t ready for this product or the market changed or, you know, I mean, I have I have a couple good friends that have had to like, shut down businesses with fantastic technology because there wasn’t really a market for it yet. Speaker 3 (00:24:54) – You know, and that doesn’t mean that they failed or their technology was terrible. There’s just so many elements that have to be perfectly aligned to really have that explosive growth that you know you want in that company. Speaker 2 (00:25:06) – No, I think I think you’re touching on a really huge point, which is the confidence the, the to be able to take what comes and, and have confidence that you’ll be able to get through it. And it takes that to be an entrepreneur. That’s part of that, that, irrational courage that founders and entrepreneurs have that, that, that. Allows them to, to to do irrational things and great things and change the world. So, you know, how do you how do you share that message? It’s so powerful. I’m grateful for you being your your candid, disclosure here, but how do you do you have other groups that you work with and, and does this topic come up a lot? Speaker 3 (00:25:45) – Yeah, I do, I, I personally like to mentor other entrepreneurs, especially female entrepreneurs, is kind of like something I’m really passionate about. Speaker 3 (00:25:54) – So at any given moment, I probably got like 3 or 4 different women that like, I’m meeting with and helping and taking calls with, and you know, that they’ve never raised venture capital before or they’re not really sure how to get started or, you know, they’re struggling in this area or that. and yeah, I think it’s important. I mean, one of my friends just finished a fundraise that she expected to take three months, and it took her six months. And and running the company and like fundraising is brutal. Normally it’s like I was my husband. So I raised capital five times. Every time he’s like, okay, he’s got to like, gear up. My family’s got to gear up. They’ve got to be like, ready for the haul that they know is coming. Because I’m I’m basically absent for that amount of time because I’m running the company. I’m flying all over the place. I’m having a million meetings. It’s incredibly stressful. It’s up and down. You get all excited about an investor and then they don’t invest, right? You know, I have to I think I my last fundraise not the one I just did, but the one before that. Speaker 3 (00:26:49) – I think I pitched 69 VCs before I got a term sheet. And so, you know, it’s just like, you know, it’s going to be hard. You know, it’s going to be difficult. You don’t expect that to be six months of that like that is that is brutal. So anyway, she just finished this fundraiser and she’s so burnt out. And I had finished mine like a month before. And she’s just like, how did you get through it? How did you recover? And I said, you know what? I took a ten day vacation with my husband right after it closed because I was like, I have to have this time to recharge because I was so wasted. And you run your company better when you take that time for yourself. Because I was just in this mode where I was so in the weeds and so, like zoomed in on everything and pulling out for ten days got me like to pull back and like, zoom out. And I could think a lot more strategically. Speaker 3 (00:27:37) – And we have like a ton of exciting stuff going on now that if I think if I would have just powered through it, I don’t know that my brain would have worked the same way. So we I think we forget that, especially if we’re, like raising money. We were like, oh, our VCs are just going to expect us to, like, jump in there and, you know, use their money. We got to be seen as like, oh, we’re working so hard to execute on the capital they gave us. But I think we need to give ourselves permission to like, take that break and take care of ourselves, because having a burnout CEO isn’t in the best interest of the company. Speaker 2 (00:28:07) – Well, that’s that’s a hugely important factor. And you know yeah we’re talking about mental health and your company’s an expert at that. And you’re helping people throughout all your clients and their, their employees. So that’s a great, great perspective. And I think people have to understand that. Speaker 4 (00:28:23) – Well, terrific. Speaker 2 (00:28:24) – I really enjoyed chatting with you today. you know, in addition to this podcast, you know, what do you like out there? What are you reading or what are you listening to? That’s that’s helpful on your on your journey? Speaker 4 (00:28:36) – Yeah. Speaker 3 (00:28:36) – I mean, my favorite podcast ever is how I built this. So I can listen to that anytime. My kids love it. I’ll sometimes let them pick an episode when we’re on like long trips and just be like, what company do you want to learn about? I just love the the beginning stages and the creation of companies is my favorite part. as far as books I love, Extreme Ownership is probably one of my favorites of all time. Just like this idea of like, always taking ownership for how things go. And I mean, we’ve everyone on our team has read that it’s like one of our core values. we’re always pushing for that, like this culture of accountability. and then right now I’m actually reading the four disciplines of execution. Our whole leadership team is reading that. Speaker 3 (00:29:20) – One is the four principles. And how to how to create alignment across an organization like powerful, you know, taking taking your one big risk. and so we’ve been really focusing on like, what is our wildly important goal. And like the big risk that we’re going to take and put our, you know, 20% of our effort toward that one thing outside of what he calls the whirlwind, right, the day to day. So, like. Speaker 4 (00:29:44) – Those are some. Speaker 3 (00:29:45) – Yeah. Yeah. So those are some of the ones, that I’m really focused on then. I love mental health podcasts and like, things like that for like personal development too. So. Speaker 2 (00:29:56) – Oh, fantastic. Well that’s that’s great. I appreciate your time today, and I can’t wait to hear about your success over the next, next few years. Thank you for joining us today. Speaker 3 (00:30:07) – Thanks, Julian. Speaker 2 (00:30:08) – All right. Amelia, take care. Speaker 1 (00:30:13) – Thank you for listening to the Growth Elevated Leadership podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, would you please follow us and subscribe on your favorite podcast player and we’d be grateful if you recommend it to a friend. Speaker 1 (00:30:23) – If you’d like more resources on how to become a better leader in business, we invite you to visit us at Growth elevated.com. We’ll be back next week with more insight from another great tech leader. Thank you.